Tämä aihe sisältää 13 vastaukset, 3 kirjoittajaa, ja siihen kirjoitti viimeksi  tricon 12.10.2017 klo 16:14.

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  • Julkaisija
    Viestit
  • #244890

    tricon
    Osallistuja

    Hello,

    Sorry for writing in English. My translations are very poor.

    I have a 1958 AZ. The suspension is unserviceable.

    New suspension pots can be easily purchased.

    Can a modern suspension pot be successfully used on an old car?

    If anyone can offer advice on the the best option to replace or repair the suspension I would be grateful. I have not had much luck with this problem.

    Thank you for your help and time.

    Daniel
    Australia.

    #244892
    Akaile
    Akaile
    Osallistuja

    Hello Daniel,
    could you describe a bit what do you mean with ”unserviceable”? Pots are rusted, springs are broken, suspension rods bent or broken threads?
    If you check my pics from the topic here: https://www.2cv.fi/keskustelut/aihe/jousiponttojen-kunnostusta/

    you get the idea what can be done. In the pics the materials are stainless but the idea is the same. Pots can be opened with grinder and all the parts can be changed. Even the original pots can be opened and closed several times before the dimensions change too much.

    There are certain differences between 2cv yearmodels and suspension parts but basicly you can put totally new pots on old 2cv. It´s more about the looks than the actual fitting. If I remember correct, some old 2cvs have the pot buffers made of steel and the looks are like cinnamon bun? Spiral I mean :D. Also the tie rod ends changed around 1974 to the ”nut”-model. Before that the all old ones had the smoother design.

    Springs itself…hmmm… You have to be quite a princess to make a difference what age springs there are 😀

    Hopefully this will help you forward.

    BTW, how did you end up to Finnish forum?

    Espoo-Ke-Su
    Dyane -68, Dyane Super -73, 2cv6 -77

    #244904

    tricon
    Osallistuja

    Thank you for your detailed reply Akaile,

    Why the Finnish forum? Luck I think. I found the forum early this year after purchasing a motor and gearbox. The items were not as described. I requested a 10 spline gearbox for my car.

    IMAGE 1 = 8 Spline Clutch Plate

    (8 Spline Clutch for 8 spline gearbox)

    The company sent (from Europe) an 8 spline gearbox from an AK400 2CV. It was not a good experience.

    So I asked a complex question on the Finnish forum.

    My question was the differences between 8 spline and 10 spline gearboxes. Perhaps it should have also been 2CV ratios and AK400 ratios in the gearbox. I went back to my mechanical engineering university books. 10 spline = more torque.

    The Finnish forum appeared to be technically superior to other sites I found.

    The problems I have:

    -> Springs were rusted/seized. To free the springs they were soaked in kerosene and then pots hit with a hammer.

    -> I only had one set of springs. The springs were copied by a spring maker here in Australia. I do not think the springs on each side of the car are the same.

    -> I am missing suspension parts. My car is new enough to not have ”Cinnamon Buns”. It has two bump stops at one end and one at the other. I need to buy the bump stops.

    -> The tie rods threads are partially stripped. This is my major concern. The rust has caused damage to the threads. I do not want the suspension to fail while driving.

    Some photographs of one side:

    IMAGE 2 = Tie Rod
    download6

    IMAGE 3 = Connection to chassis
    download4

    IMAGE 4 = Overall Suspension
    download

    IMAGE 5 = Connection To Chassis
    download2

    IMAGE 6 = Pot Lenght

    As you can see I have the ”newer” suspension with two bump stops at one end and one bump stop at the other. I do not have the cinnamon bun springs (very nice description by the way). I am missing one bump stop. So I need to buy this.

    If it is about looks rather than physical attachment (new pots are too big for my old car). I am happy. My car is not built to be original (it is yellow, not grey :-). I use new lights at the rear, I have electric wipers, I found and bought an 18hp 425cc engine (a very patient person from France helped me). I did not fit the 602cc engine as there would be too many changes required. The car will be 12v etc..

    I may not need a stainless pot (I have no snow and salt). I have considered it. I will simply replace the parts as the car sat outdoors (mainly) for 20+ years.

    It is good to know that I can fit new parts to an old car. I contacted several parts companies (even in the UK) and no company could advise me of this. I want to get the car on the road again. I am worried I will become a 2CV parts store as I have purchased so many incorrect parts. I am happy to learn from mistakes. I simply need to make fewer expensive ones 🙂

    Thank you for your help and I hope some of this helps others also.

    Regards,

    Daniel.

    #244909

    tricon
    Osallistuja

    Sorry, Some images failed.

    Image 1 = 8 Spline Clutch Plate:
    8spline-1

    Image 6 = Pot Length
    SUSPENSION1-1

    Thank you,

    Daniel.

    #244916
    Akaile
    Akaile
    Osallistuja

    Thank you for your very well detailed answer! Much easier to continue from this 🙂
    First of all, at the image 5 it seems to be something wrong with the pot dimensions. Both ends should look the same so now I assume that the pot has been cut open and therefore some length is missing and it´s compensated with some filling after the thread pipe…?

    With the thread pipes you adjust the placement of the pot, always. This is because if the pot is too front or back, you will run out of threads in the tie rod endings.
    The tie rods endings are not unsafe if the eye of it is not stretched or worn badly with deep dent. The threads you most likely can fix with thread die and tap, size is M11 x 1. Might be difficult to find ones but atleast you have metric system there down under 😉

    When making new springs: The dimensions are extremely important as you know. The amount of spring circles and the thicknes of the steel has to be exactly the same. Even when it´s done like this there might be difference with the tension compared to the old ones and the reason is that those are old…carried heavy loads during the years. Please note that in one pot there are always one spring with right hand thread and another with left hand thread. The reason is the rotation movement during suspending; the counter thread should make this rotation less and therefore the pot itself is not rotating so much. ”Force and the counterforce”..

    Because you seem to have ”newer” suspension parts it shouldn´t be any problem to get all the needed parts. I have been purchasing my stainless parts from the Burton car company but they have also in traditional steel the same parts. I don´t have anything to complain about their quality in the mentioned parts. Please have a try to get connection to them, I mean the transportation to Australia is the bigger problem as I have understood? https://www.burton2cvparts.com/

    Cheers!

    Espoo-Ke-Su
    Dyane -68, Dyane Super -73, 2cv6 -77

    #244932

    tricon
    Osallistuja

    The detail you have provided has helped me a lot, Akaile. Thank you.

    What you have noted about the pots being cut (or different) is one of the reasons why I do not want to buy parts that could be incorrect.

    My research has suggested that the ”Old” springs are longer than the new ones (by about 15mm) and that the tie rods are also longer again 15mm.

    I was worried that by purchasing new parts the car would ride too high. I was going to purchase the ”long” eyelet to compensate for the shorter parts. I may do this anyway.

    Long eyelet:
    https://www.burton2cvparts.com/tie-rod-end-eye-long-p-5171.html

    I am aware that the hexagonal end may be a problem but there are other similar parts that are round.

    When I purchased the car (in 1994…) It had no pots and only one set of tie rods. From memory, I purchased a pot ’locally’ (900km away – I went for a drive…) and then copied this pot using and making what I needed.

    Your comment about the springs is important. I do not know how much care was used in creating the springs. Was the ’k’ value https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke%27s_law was kept the same. I know you can keep it the same but only if you care (or do it yourself).

    My concern was that the springs on each side of the car are different and the car may ride incorrectly. This could be compensated but now that the car has an extra 6hp (from the 1960’s 425cc motor) who knows what could happen! :-).

    I have an old 2CV manual that is missing many pages. I found the manual here:

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/su2vakktkj6oei6/jF3qLo415w

    It is the 447 Slough Manual.

    It shows the construction of the Cinnamon Springs:

    spring1

    Any my newer double bump springs:

    spring2

    So my springs are missing the extra bump stop. The sizes are the same on both sides of the car. I think this side is the pot I purchased.

    suspension_2

    I remember my grandmother having trouble with metric when Australia converted in the mid-1970s. It was a good move. I did not know the full process took 17 years (1971-1988). Yes lucky we use SI units, but why did Citroen use 11mm and 7mm threads! :-(. I can purchase a Chinese die to fix the thread. I will see if there are any manufacturers of longer lasting tools. My local company (Sutton) only makes the M11x1,5.

    I had a look at Burton (I noticed from your other suspension thread this is what you used). Parts look good and the price is fair. Shipping two new pots (and other related items) to Australia €440 :-(. This is an estimate so I can contact them and see if they have other options. I would suggest this price is for air courier, not the postal service.

    Thank you for the tip of opposite rotating springs. The pictures show this but I never realised (or considered it).

    I will contact Burton to see how they can help me. As previously mentioned no company I have contacted (and, yes, I understand communication is difficult and I am on the other side of the world – repeat sales are difficult) have been very good at technical sales. This included a few English companies. The understanding and help you have provided has been exceptional. Thank you.

    Thank you for your help. With Summer arriving I will have time and good weather to finally drive the car that has sat with me for so long.

    Cheers,

    Daniel.

    #244958
    Akaile
    Akaile
    Osallistuja

    Hi again,

    according one Mehari-book which I found, your pot lenght from the top is the same as it should be from the inner length. The spring thickness might be different but the pot size should be the same on both, 2cv and Mehari.

    Double rubber buffers won´t be needed with this ”normal” length but of course it´s possible to do so too.

    To avoid postal costs I would recommend you to order the small needed parts from europe and focus on the pots locally. Pot endings are the most difficult to make but the cylinder itself is easy. There is standard size Stainless (and ”black”) close enough to the original dimensions or another option is to roll it from sheet metal.

    I did´t explain the pot opening yet in english: When I said that opening the pot is done with grinder I didn´t pay attention to mention the way how it´s done? Not by cuting, but grinding little by little, that´s the keyword to save the pot lenght for re-welding. So you start grinding it on top of the old weld and simultaneously rotate the pot. Sometimes you hammer softly to the pot end. After a while small fraction will show up between the cylinder and the pot end. When the fraction is showable 360 degrees then you grab the tie rod and start shaking the whole pot up and down. The weight of the pot and springs will separate the ending and the pot. By doing like this the pot is possible to open and close several times before you run out of material.

    I can still seek if I find older 2cv material from the same topic.

    Cheers

    Espoo-Ke-Su
    Dyane -68, Dyane Super -73, 2cv6 -77

    #244966

    Wonderi
    Osallistuja

    Pot endcaps are also sold separately, just add cylinders. https://www.franzose.de/en/Citroen-2CV/2CV6/Federung-Federbeine-Federtoepfe/ANR12102/

    #245023

    tricon
    Osallistuja

    Thank you Wonderi. That is an option.

    Thank you Akaile. The documentation you provided has supported the decision to simply fit new components. I also do not need the longer eye as the required one will work.

    I appreciate the detail for the disassembly of the pots. I have all the equipment I require to do this.

    After some searching I have located all parts for both sides in black steel for about 550 Euro posted. That is very reasonable I believe.

    Once I have installed the pots I will send some photographs.

    I still have a lot of work brakes, engine, interior however the suspension was the most difficult.

    Thank you all for your guidance.

    Regards

    Daniel.

    #245025

    tricon
    Osallistuja

    I forgot to add Wonderi that Der Franzose do offer good postage. The items arrive one Month after payment.

    Daniel.

    #245057
    Akaile
    Akaile
    Osallistuja

    You´re welcome Tricon.
    Feel free to ask other topics too. Pictures are the best way to avoid language barriers so I believe this kind of technical topics can be usefull for all of us.

    There are certain similarities between the Finns and Ozzies: There are long traditions in Finland to fix old 2cvs by hand and avoiding buying new parts. Our history and economy has put people to do so and this is a big difference compared to our middle-european friends. Decades they had access to cheap and not so rusted examples and therefore there was no need to fix things. Ozzies instead have been doing the same than Finns, fixing by their own hands and the reason is the distance to resellers and lack of second hand 2cvs and organ donors due the fact that the factory didn´t import these funny cars to Australia. Ofcourse you know this but I want that other followers will pay attention for this too.

    Have a nice spring time with your 2cv!

    Espoo-Ke-Su
    Dyane -68, Dyane Super -73, 2cv6 -77

    #245062

    Wonderi
    Osallistuja

    I forgot to add Wonderi that Der Franzose do offer good postage. The items arrive one Month after payment.

    Once I tried to save few euros and paid Der Franzose by transferring money directly to their account. It took ages for them to send the parts. Next time I paid with credit card, and they sent the parts immediately, package arrived in few days.

    #245081

    tricon
    Osallistuja

    Thank you Wonderi, yes, I saw there was a saving of a few 2? percent. It may not be that bad for me as I expect to wait a long time for parts. My last big shipment (the engine) took 3 months in a plane! That was a TNT cybersecurity problem and a lot a pain to have the items delivered when they disappeared.

    #245083

    tricon
    Osallistuja

    I did not know the similarities Akaile. I guess it is my ignorance. There is/was a big Greek/Italian community here and I would guess the major European influence. Northern Europe is not well represented and it follows you do not learn about the culture.

    We do have to be very adaptive as when you travel into the country there is little of anything except sun and sand. In some ways the opposite of your experience.

    There is a television show (only 4 episodes) called ”Bush Mechanic” (it is slang). You can see it here if the link works:

    The people in the show are very good at making sure their car keeps going.

    I worked in central Australia and yes I had to be very adaptive especially when troubleshooting and repairing technical equipment. You simply could not obtain spare parts and you had to fix what you had.

    The mechanics begin after 3 minutes. There are another 3 shows plus the trial show for initial funding.

    I learned a lot from my father (he was very good with a file) unfortunately my son is not interested. After 15 minutes all he wants to do is play soccer/football.

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